How difficult is it to go pro?

I have 2 950 tog and a 750 in my window already, put out for the public to see, the 500 guys I just toss out the back door.

Ok so some charge more some charge less, I dont mind what you charge. Just dont charge me OK.

Gerrit I would never charge you for a shoot :) Have your people phone my people and we'll set something up.

"what the market will bear!"

I'd rather do a wedding for R2 500 than not do one at all. Of course I'd love to do the R25 000 wedding, but if that ain't coming, I'll take the R2 500 one.

But will I do the R500 wedding? No, too much PT.

You get Unos, you get Toyotas, you get Mercs – you get what you pay for. The guys that sell Ferraris cannot complain that the guys who sell Unos are making more money selling a crappy product. If the market is there, take it! I'm a reborn capitalist, and as such, I've got no issue with anyone doing anything – if he gets paid for it and me not – then I have to re-look my business-model. Christo's 10-buck-a-pop guy is making a lot more money than I do! And I cannot complain that his shots are crappy and that my retarded cousin can do better, because guess what – he is taking home some bacon and I'm not! More power to him.

Who cares about "art" and "conceptualisation" and "technical brilliance" and "originality" when you are starving and have to sell your tripod to eat? As some political commentator said; "you can't eat rights". You can't eat originality. You can't eat artistic integrity. You can only eat through money on the table, and its up to each of us to do what needs doing in tough times to make sure that there's bread on the table. And if you are good at it, some jam too!

"Resentment at another's success is the hallmark of the second-rater". 5 points for whomever can tell me who said that.

Damn, I need to learn how to not write novels every time I post!

uhm yeah you do.

The reason I posted this was because of a discussion a long time ago about undercutting. Fact is if I am at the met and I say to someone I'll take an awesome pick of you for R1000 and gerry comes along and says I'll take an ok pick of you for R500 who is the gonna get the business? The R500 guy. I would probably not have gotten the business because I outpriced the client.

That is something we as South Africans and especially Cape Tonians are very good at. Charging exhorbitant rates and then wondering why we are not getting busniss and then wanting to kill our "competitors" who charge less.

WAKE UP!!!! Capitalism is built on undercutting your competitors.

[quote=]You get Unos, you get Toyotas, you get Mercs – you get what you pay for. The guys that sell Ferraris cannot complain that the guys who sell Unos are making more money selling a crappy product.[/quote]

Aaaaii, here we go again.. Someones got to argue this *puts up his hand*..

The point here is not that the person selling the Unos is going to step on the person selling the Ferraris toes, quite the opposite. The problem comes in when the Uno guy now suddenly has a Merc or Ferrari product but his clientele are accustomed to paying Uno pricing.
The Ferrari guy is still making his money but the Uno guy is then working 10 times harder than him and making squat.

It's important to understand that customers won't simply pay your higher rates one day when you realise you need to put in more effort or invest more in equipment to stay ahead of the game, provided you're happy never raising your rates then you should be fine - but in a realistic economy this wouldn't be viable.


My personal experience has shown me that you don't sell more by cheapening your product, quite the opposite in fact.. People have a sense of pride that prevents them from going to the cheapest supplier, they rather pay more.

My personal experience has shown me that you don't sell more by cheapening your product, quite the opposite in fact.. People have a sense of pride that prevents them from going to the cheapest supplier, they rather pay more.

Very true Matt, if you sell Ferraris to people who generally have the capital to buy a ferrari. however if you try and sell me a ferrari, your gonna lose out. I just dont have the capital. On the other hand, if your clever, you'll find a 2010 VW Golf and sell me that and still make some commission instead of just pulling up your nose and saying "well if you cant afford my product I dont want to do business with you anyway."

I wont buy an uno. Crap cars and I have the money to do better. There is a huge market of uno buyers out there though. So if your not selling to them and I'm not seloing to them then the next guy that comes past is gonna make a lott of money from a huge untapped market That market doesnt care about perfect lighting and arty composition. That guy is gonna work a bit harder but he is sure of an income, the ferrari salesman craps himself the end of the month because he has no idea if he is going to make another sale.

I got to agree 100% here with Matt, I see "togs" all the time offering these ridiculous specials for portfolio shoots, a month later they are still offering them etc etc. We have various packages but they are by no means cheap. We are still pretty much fully booked, but we do guarentee a consistant, great quality product and timeous turn around - based on that you certainly get what you pay for.

We are also finding that overall our clientelle (mostly agency models) are very serious about what they are doing and prepared to invest in their modelling careers.

As Matt says, once you start charging ridiculous prices be prepared to stay there as it becomes very difficult to suddenly start increasing them. This is simple business practice.

I agree completely that there's a market out there that wants to pay as little as possible, there always is..
There's an even bigger market for free stuff!
The decision here is whether you want to be a photographer catering to that market, and if you're going to undermine your product enough to make it almost "worthless" then rather shoot for free IMHO.

The market does not understand our industry, they are just out there looking for a bargain.. You can't blame the market if they choose to pay X minus 50% for a product just because the seller (seller A) is desperate to do a sale.

The only person who suffers in the end is the seller him/herself who are suddenly having to make 3/4 times as many sales to make the same profit as others (seller B) who stuck to his/her principles and rates.
Ultimately the viability for seller A to continue offering the same quality product as seller B declines so his service offering actually becomes worth the amount he sells it for.

Seller B on the other hand is making a decent living (although it might have seemed a bit harder to get going in the beginning) and can actually look at improving his product output.

So as a photographer you need to decide whether you want to be the guy on the street corner churning out 30 shoots a day with prints and making your R300, or the guy who prides his work (and the industry in general) and does his utmost to offer the best product he can to fewer but more loyal customers.

Ultimately the guy on the street corner is going to have another guy set up a block away from him offering shots at even less than he is offering them at and he'll likely want to drop his pricing even further to keep up.
The other photographer has instead built up a reputation for quality and has repeat business from his customers and can actually afford to buy new equipment to sustain his growth in the industry..

We are also finding that overall our clientelle (mostly agency models) are very serious about what they are doing and prepared to invest in their modelling careers.

Thats exzctly it Dave. You cater for professional agency models. To them spending R2000 on a portfolio is an investment.
To the average person on the street spending R2000 on a shoot is simplu unaffordable.

So as a photographer you need to decide whether you want to be the guy on the street corner churning out 30 shoots a day with prints and making your R300, or the guy who prides his work (and the industry in general) and does his utmost to offer the best product he can to fewer but more loyal customers.

If the R300 a month puts me into a higher income bracket so I can buy a house, then yes that is what I need to do for now. Sitting at home priding myself on the quality of my work and having NO income doesnt really help me in the end. Makes me feel awesome that i am so unaffordably good but does nothing for my bank manager.

True, sitting at home doing nothing doesn't bring in money. And starting a new business is never easy..
Becoming a photographer means being your own "business owner" and it comes with all the regular challenges associated.

If it were just a matter of, "ok, I'm going to go and sell the same stuff old Raymond Ackerman is selling at a lower rate so I can make more money than PnP" then our economy would have crashed long ago..

It's about developing yourself as a valued service provider, marketing yourself correctly, building a reputation etc - in a proper business plan pricing is usually the one of the last considerations.
Far too many people fail in business by simply jumping in and deciding to undercut their fellow industry members by offering the same product for less.

All I'm saying is that price is not nearly as important as everyone always makes it out to be, and pricing alone is certainly not going to make any business successful.

point taken.

All valid points: I still stand by my opinion that you do what you need to do to bering home the bacon.

that being said, I'd LOVE to bring home tons of bacon with the aid of Nikon and Elinchrom, but I don't, not yet. I bring in bacon through other means.

which means I charge for my phtography - maybe not as much as Matt or Dave does, but I still charge. I dont get too many clients though, and if I DID have to bring home the pork-rinds, with the aid of Nikon, I would drop my prices. But luckily I don't have to. So photography income=bonus.

I hope in the long run I'll do more paid-for phtography and less real work!

As long as you work is worh paying for and not just because you have spent loads of money on your gear. There too many of those on here......'i have to charge now as spent too much money on my gear.'
And they still churn out the same stuff.

OK so here is a question for the pro's. Any marketing tips?

Yeah, any marketing tips?