Kit fee debate

This is what I don't get. Our kit as togs amount too several hundred thousand rands. If you calculate everything together cameras, lenses, lights etc. it can easily exceed R300k. Just a couple of weeks ago Matt's one bag got stolen. R150k down the drain. Do not give me the line, but your gear lasts you a life time, no they don't. I find the prosumer cameras you need too upgrade round about every 2 years, your pro cameras every 3 years. These come at a huge expense. Lenses, you also need to keep up to date. I still have lenses from the film days. They used to be awesome on my old FM2, but face it, the new lenses are just so much better. Those you need too upgrade every 4 years. Lighting equipment. I still have a couple of Elinchrom 500s and they do great work even after a couple of repairs. And yes I can do a lot of work with just 3-4 lights, but it is also not uncommon for me to use up to 40 lights for one shoot. Yes, these I do rent, but if I continue down the road I am going it is better that I rather buy them and charge client for rental.
Back to TFCD. Like I said togs kit goes up too several R100k how is it then than MUAs, where the average kit comes too about R50k get to charge a kit fee on TFCD work but we don't?
For that reason for TFCD work I mainly work with the girls at the MAC counters unless I need airbrushing or special effects make up done, then I do have my preferred suppliers. The MAC girls gives me the service that I need and I get product for my wife at less than most MUAs charge as kit fee.
What ends up happening: through this kit fee the MUAs are isolating themselves. I don't know your work, so why the hell should I use you when I do a paid shoot?
Come on TFCD is there for creatives to get together and hone their skills, to try out new possibilities. To really drive this train forward we all need too pitch in and put in some time for the love of art.
Yes, I do agree I won't expect an award winning MUA to come work for me that has no award behind my name. In the end we need to compare apples with apples here.
This should also not be unlimited. I agree if you cannot convince a client of your work standard within 3-5 shots, you won't convince them in a 100. The same goes for the MUA delivering TFCD services too a tog. 3-5 try's should be ample. If by then he doesn't have his act together and is not producing paid work, you know it's time too move on.
Please debate.
Sorry lets do this on another thread. Sorry for the hijack.

Yeah I get that, when mua artist that dont even have a proper port ask for a kit fee, i dont use them, TFCD is for ppl who all get something out of it. Unless the mua is a well known person doing a favour, i can understand that. But someone thats new on MB with no real port, thats a diff story.

What ends up happening: through this kit fee the MUAs are isolating themselves. I don't know your work, so why the hell should I use you when I do a paid shoot?

valid point

The simple truth about it is 90% of all shoots dont end up with anything a MUA can use in her portfolio thats worth anything. You want MUA to flock after you and help you without any question, learn to do proper beauty shots.

And then dont forget to take them on every shoot that you use a MUA, and then make sure you get them to the MUA asap.

Then take R150000 the price of a nice prosumer body and see if you can get a Makeup kit for it. And if you do see if you can make it last even 6months without refilling all those expensive little post they lug around.

The truth of it is, if you are honest, in most Pure TFCD shoots the MUA is the one that looses most.

*standing ovation for Geriit*

Don't think of it as a "kit fee" – think of it as a "consumables" fee. Shes consuming her product at a much, much faster rate than you are. And I've had ladies with MUA kits that cost more than some photographers' camera kit. After 3 years, you still have a camera, a lens lasts a lifetime, chances are, the only things a MUA has left of het kit after 3 years is a chair and a mirror.

Stop bitching – pay your MUAs. They make every shoot worth it – If a MUA approaches me for TF, I'll consider it, but I hardly ever approach a MUA for TF – I'd much rather pay her. Shes the ace up my sleeve after all.

hasn't this all been debated before?

I always pay the MUA on TFCD. As Gerrit said, they get the least from most shoots. Also, when a paid job comes along, we don't share the proceeds with the MUA, do we. They normally only get a small fee for their time and effort.

M

If im gonna be paying a mua from MB who barely has a port R350 for a kit fee, i might aswell contact 'the best' and pay R500, u never know what you are gonna get from MB either, so its a huge risk as the mua can make or ruin ur shoot, i have had mua who did horrible work and I couldnt use the pictures either. I am happy to pay when it is for something worth my money, sorry.

Interesting to note how standpoints are affected by particular circumstances and experiences.
If my wife was a MUA I'm sure I would have more insight into what goes into a kit. Nevertheless, what role we perform in the creative process is a choice we have consciously made. These choices would by necessity have involved at the very least a little SWOT analysis and a consideration of how much we are prepared to sacrifice (INVEST) on the road to becoming indispensable.
A TFCD shoot , as has been famously summed up on numerous occasions, should be on the basis of "If any one gets paid, everyone gets paid" As politically-correct as it may seem to open doors for fragile little ladies and pay poor MUA, some togs here on Modelbase pay MUA as an incentive to girls who would otherwise be put off by their mediocre port. Its pretty much the same as when a tog has to resort to using one of the few "Paid Assignments only"models for nudes. Anyway , the real test would be if MUA scramble to work with a tog because they know they will come away with work which showcases their talent, not because they will be the only one out of the team to be paid.
There's a heap of argument regarding shutter-counts, lighting malfunction and consumables, not including the enormous costs models INVEST on wardrobe, gym subs, manicures, pedicures et al. Suffice to say though that while constant TFCD is not only draining on everyone, but points perhaps to an underlying problem of creativity, people cant build relationships with one another if they cant get to know if they work well together.

people cant build relationships with one another if they cant get to know if they work well together.

+1

"If any one gets paid, everyone gets paid"

Nope - as has been said ad nauseum - how many beauty shoots does a MUA need in her port.

Generally speaking, a TF deal is a two-way street - two people who want to work with each other - but the two of them need a third. Either find a party who will do a TF deal, or pay the 3rd party. Easy as that. There is no TF rule that says "when one works for free, we all work for free". That's BS.

I pay Theresa more often than not - but she's also done a few things for me for "free". I will not expect her to do "another beauty shot" for TF, because she has tons of that. But when we get creative, or we can both benefit, then its a different story.

Generally speaking, a TF deal is a two-way street - two people who want to work with each other - but the two of them need a third. Either find a party who will do a TF deal, or pay the 3rd party.
I think we are overlooking the fact that the 3rd party may want to work with one or both of the other parties.

As an aside, if one were to look at this debate from the outside, one would be forgiven if at first glance it seemed as if poor MUA are being forced into slavery by greedy capitalists.
If I approached our MUA and said " I'm shooting a short buck-toothed cross-eyed chick with nice tits. Are you keen to collaborate ?" and she says " Nah, I have enough hillbilly portraits in my book" (Or, Piss-off I'm going on a photo road-trip with Derek) that's supercool.

But when we get creative, or we can both benefit, then its a different story.

Ah, but that is truth which you speak !
If you are going to engage in mundane, repetitive stuff then at least pay the MUA so she/he doesn't fall asleep. for goodness sake.
If you dream up, or stub your toe against, a magic concept, that your MUA can see lots of value in for herself, then that IS the payment.

Brad dude if a tog with the skills goes to a MUA with the skills payment would not even be mentioned if the idea was cool.

The problem comes when the tog or the models comes up with some idea, and then decide they would love to do that shoot, then approach the MUA and are shocked when she says sure this is my fee. And she just does not need anothe image of some model smiling in a bra and panties in her portfolio.

And living with the other side of the coin in the house, trust me thats mostly what happens. I dont think i know a single MUA who would not jump at getting something new and different from a good tog in there book.

So if they are insisting on beeing paid either your work or your concept just is not up to scratch.

Lastly lets not forget that other than togs and models most of the MUA do it for a living and not as a hobby and that changes everything

The problem comes when the tog or the models comes up with some idea, and then decide they would love to do that shoot, then approach the MUA and are shocked when she says sure this is my fee.

I agree that other people simply having a bright idea should not put the MUA out of pocket.

So if they are insisting on beeing paid either your work or your concept just is not up to scratch.

+1

The universe is broken. I'm agreeing with Gerrit. Again.

If I do TFCD all I ask for is petrol money if it's more than 1/2 hour from home. And please feed me, and glass of wino or water oetc. would be much appreciated. Things like specialized false lashes I provide myself, as in the end of the day it's for my portfolio.